On a static job, I set one unit in the center of the job as a base and leapfrogged 2 units around the job. Job lasted about 3 hours. During processing, the first portion of the data for the base came up as kinematic data and created about 300 points. I don't get vectors from it to some of the first points occupied by the other units. What happened and can this be rectified. The job is 120 miles away and I do not want to go back.

You couldn't have made one your rovers teh control point, could you?

BEFORE I got my ProMark2 units, I would use my ProMark Xcm units for S & G Kinematic and I accidently(I think twice) made the S & G unit the base . . . it made everything come up "mirrored", but, it did accept my rover as the "base".

See if that might help you out.

Dave
Modified By Dave Huff on 10/28/2004 at 1:11 AM

I've had a few incidents where the base wold initially be listed as kinematic. In those instances, I never had the base data "segmented".

Had I went ahead and ran(processed) the session, would the base data have segmented itself into 1000's of individual points?

I was always under the impression that the numbering sequencing had to be setup under the attributes . . . if the sequence wasn't setup, I always assumed that ALL the data would wind up being ????.

Bob: I'm curious, if your base somehow set itself up as a 1-second kinematic unit, what happened to the rover datas.

What would happen if you took the base data and made a Rinex of it, then put that RINEX data into A.S.. Think about it . . . the ProMark2 only recieves data and stores it as DATA. The information about timing, segmentation and all is actually something that is added in A.S.. But the actual stored data for the session shouldn't be any different than for any other unit.

That might strip all the attribute data an keep it from segmenting the base data.

There is a switch in the software that kicks the data into kinematic mode if the antenna is in motion.

Sometimes, the solution is so poor that the antenna appears to be in motion even when it is not.

If it really is static data then putting it back together again is easy to do in the time view simply by right clicking on the cross hatched data and doing a little editing of the properties of the data.

You may still have some work to do when that is done. Check out the section of the manual called Post Processing Data Analysis.

I get the impression that there are hundreds(or in any case MANY) individual epochs. You're not saying to editing all the little pieces . . . are you?

Is the data from a kinematic session segmented before it even gets downloaded from a PM2, or does the information for the segmentation download with the data?

When the data is imported into A.S. . . . even data with hundreds of segmented points, the data(all of it) is still only from 1 file.

I don't see why, without importation to A.S., a RINEX file of the base data can't be made.

RINEX conversion is possible. I do not know why that would solve the problem described. There is not a problem using any tactic that works. I try to use the KISS method.

It is a good to make sure the GPS receiver has locked SV's and is ready for the work before the day of survey work begins. Fifteen minutes with the ProMark2 in navigation mode is a good idea if you have not used the receiver for a while or if you drove a long way to your job site. The big deal is to just look and make sure it is ready for work. Hollow signal strength bars and skyplots that are making radical changes do not represent my idea of a GPS receiver that is ready for field work.

Here is a science project for you. While you are doing a static survey session pick up the tripod and walk about 100 feet away from the point. Walk back over to the point and set your tripod back on the monument to collect more data.

What does it look like in Ashtech Solutions?

If you want another science project do another static session. This time fill a sandwich bag with water and set it on top of the antenna after the receiver has been running for a few minutes. A pie pan over the antenna might do the same thing. Remove the "obstruction" and let it collect more data in the same session on the same point.

What does it look like in Ashtech Solutions?

If it is truly static data it can be mended by editing the SiteID for the cross hatched portion of the file to match the Site where it was set up and by changing it from kinematic to static data with a click of the mouse.

This is science but not rocket science.

Nobody has mentioned the logic of trying to do the GPS survey work in a place that does not seem very suitable for GPS but I understand because I often did the same thing. We do what we think must be done and hope that it will work out.

Putting a "base" in a place that is not suitable for GPS work is the first step toward a failed project.


Go to the ftp server at

ftp://ftp.thalesnavigation.com

and click your way along this path

Reference Manuals --> 6500_6300 --> English

There is a file named

PocketGuideRevC.pdf

that is a little book that will download quickly.

Check out page 4 (I think it is page 6 in Acrobat Reader).

It has pictures and everything so even Dave and Paul can understand it.

Modified By Phil Stevenson on 10/28/2004 at 12:46 PM

For that experiment to compare to the actual problem, you'd have to move the rover, respectively that same 100 feet at the same time(mind you I said "respectively").

Unless you're thinking that bob point's "BASE" setup was in such a gawdawful place that the problems he encounterd with the base didn't also occur with the rovers at the same time.

I can't imagine that the BASE was set up in such a questionable place. I know, for me, the BASE is always setup where it will not suffer from problems such as multipaths and cycle slips caused by trees and buildings.

It's with this in mind that I think that a simple RINEX conversion of the base might work.

What I don't understand, is that I also have a base that will at times indicate "kinematic"(on static sessions). I simply repost the data as "static".

If I didn't repost it as static, would I also have hundreds, if not thousands of "points"?

How's come you're not replying to these posts?

We're all trying, in our own way and based on what we know, to help you.

We don't know if the base was set up in a gymnasium or on top of an open hill.

We don't know if the base was just stacked loosly over a point and wobbled or what.

This issue about static data becoming kinematic data is about one GPS receiver and how the software interprets what it reads in the file.

You don't need to move the "rover" the same 100 feet to see that a receiver set in motion will have data that shows up as kinematic. The science project as described is valid, even if it is not useful for GPS work.

If the antenna is in motion, or if it appears to be in motion, the software will interpret it as being kinematic data. It has nothing to do with what any other receivers may be doing at the same time.

This is one of the reasons why using a bipod to hold the rover pole steady is important for a Stop&Go survey. I have been told that surveyors would starve if they all had to use bipods. That never made sense to me since I used a bipod with my total station work and found a way to feed my family too. But that may be just a matter of two opinions.

Fixing the problem in Ashtech Solutions does not require editing the data one epoch at a time. It is a simple task that a few clicks of the mouse and a little typing of SiteID's will repair.

There is a section of the Ashtech Solutions manual called Post Processing Data Analysis that should be required reading for everybody who crunches GPS data in Ashtech Solutions.

Unc' Phil said:

"There is a file named

PocketGuideRevC.pdf

that is a little book that will download quickly.

Check out page 4 (I think it is page 6 in Acrobat Reader).

It has pictures and everything so even Dave and Paul can understand it."


Boy Howdy is that a "dated" diagram. Sadly, kids at home, don't try this. BAD place to put your base.

_______________________________________

Gee, I thought I pointed "Bob Point" in the right direction seeing as how you guys were discussing this just the other day. And looking at his email addy, could it be? Another? Regardless, let me be the first to say:

Welcome Bob Point!


Dangerous Dave
Modified By Dave Huff on 10/28/2004 at 2:30 PM

I noticed you did not include everybody in your list.

Paul in PA

Huh?

I downloaded the above prescribed manual.

I notice on page 2 a picture of the "ON/OFF" key, but it does not tell me in which mode I can expect better results. Somebody please help me out here and in turn I will explain it to John?

Paul in PA

Phil was just pokin' fun at us. Why not? We're all friends here, and sometimes just a touch of humor goes a long way in battling a bit of frustration.
We make fun of each others' "science projects". The intro to the Solutions manual even suggests to "try it out in a nearby parking lot or park" so that in itself speaks volumes that "science projects" are in fact suggested. You've got to know, by proving to yourself, when to push the in-vel-ope (Billings, Oct. '04) and when you can lick the on-vel-ope(Huff, Oct. '04) without it coming back to you with "Return to Sender" across the front.
Some things, like the PM2 going into kinematic mode possibly due to the trajectory measurements as seen by Solutions could be addressed in a FAQ. Maybe they are on the Thales website, I haven't looked. Contemplate a thread that could remain at the top of the message board entitled "FAQ" where these kind of things along with the "code 32" and others could be listed---something that would be complimentary to the "search" function we already have in place.
Just some thoughts.

Dangerous Dave

Footnotes:

"Billings, Oct. '04"---- pronunciation after realizing and exclaiming "Huh? You mean I drank a bug light??"

"Huff, Oct. '04"----"Deral, take a picture of me and the Mobile Mapper with my tongue stuck to this tree"
Modified By Dave Huff on 10/28/2004 at 4:10 PM

I have yet to have a Kinematic problem, (knock wood). That even includes the time my wife picked up a running Promark without turning it off and brought it back to the Jeep. She even walked underneath a gas station canopy. Solutions solved it without a hitch without me deleting the last couple of minutes of data. I then deleted 2 minutes and could not see a difference in results.

Given enough time, all data wounds can be healed.

Is this error a factor of the data collection epoch? i.e. Solutions figures it is more likely to be Kinematic with a shorter epoch?

The best way to isolate an intermittent problem is to gather all the facts, all the time, and sooner or later you will find the common denominator.

Paul in PA

Well, I just looked at the FAQ on the Thales website with regard to the question at hand. Nicely done I will say, maybe Thales would consider adding something with regard to "My Static session says it is Kinematic data" or the such.
As to my "never moving thread at the top of the message board" idea(r), maybe a direct link to the FAQ would help.

Just when I'm ready to pack it in, you give me more homework to do. I haven't been to the FAQ site lately, so I had to go and re-edumacate myself.

I now have a new question on the PM2.

If it can take RTCM type 9 signals, as typical from a Coast Guard Beacon station in Navigate Mode but not in Survey Mode how is it analazing the signal differently? How do I get the RTCM signal in to the PM2? How good is the Navigate Mode solution? I know even with WAAS the position solution is better than the significant digits of the output.

Inquiring minds need to know.

Paul in PA

The word that came to me is that the DGPS capability is an undocumented feature in the ProMark2 that you are welcome to use as a science project.

There are some folks who are experimenting with this feature and I hope they will notice your question and share information with you.

I have to pick on Dave and Paul once in a while just because I know they have big shoulders and they can take it.

we have re-engineered the wiring for data-in/data-out on a PM2 cradle and tied to our RTCM receiver and external antenna (dual purpose antenna). We first did this last year thinking we really had something. Didn't look to good in practice. The unit WILL display "DGPS CORRECTION" message on the screen, BUT not really any better positioning than WAAS only. We tried it again in the last few weeks while experimenting with a few other hardware theories. Same thing. NOT submeter positioning. It mus be something in the way the firmware/on-board processor handles the data. Either way, we haven't seen the PM2 actually position sub-meter with correction. Actually, we really aren't convinced that the Mobile Mapper is going to be real time submeter with out Omni-Star correction either. We can make the hardware devices communicate, and see the "DGPS CORRECTION" message display, but not the desired results. NOt sure if the internal firmware "averaging" routine may be the culprit?

J.D.

Since Ashtech mentioned it on the Ashtech site is it still undocumented?

How do I find the undocumented method of cramming the electrons through the data port?

There are low cost DGPS receivers out there for other handhelds and marine use. Which one would be the least difficult to connect?

Paul in PA

good question

we have a pretty good investment in out Mark IV radio and antenna/cables, and OmniStar subscription. Other than attempting to make our old Reliance unit continue to work, I'm not sure what good last year's investment in the Sub-meter equipment is now. I would like to think we can make it work with the Mobile Mapper, but alas I do not now have time to make my own MM pole mount cradle, or an antenna cable to connect to the MM in the field that would not be so fragile. And I do not have time to experiment with trying to find out what will work.

I now have to actually attend to the work that all of this investment was made for, and maybe make enough of a profit to upgrade to a newer level of technology soon.

Sounds like more whining doesn't it?

J.D.

You would think that the promark would have better "seed" coordinates, also, since it has waas capacity. However, they're no better, maybe not as close, as the 'ol trusty locus. The promark must ignore the waas signals when it's doing "serious" surveying.

J.T.

WAAS has nothing to do with "serious surveying", whether post processed, RTK or RTCM. I suppose WAAS is a sort of DGPS in and of itself, but I do not believe it is incorporated into the mix with correction signals such as OmniStar or the Coast Guard Beacon signals.

WAAS and SBAS in general are much like differential GPS signals. I do not know what your experience with the NDGPS may be but some people tell me it is not better than the WAAS.

I have talked to a few people who have set up their own DGPS base stations and have seen superior results compared to WAAS or NDGPS. Since I have not done it in recent years and have no inclination to do it. I must leave it to those who want to use it to experiment and explain what they did.

Is ProMark2 superior to the Locus for survey applications? I really am not sure about it. I have more experience with the ProMark2 but have used them both together in one survey project. Each of them has some advantages over the other. My personal preference is the ProMark2 but I understand why many of you want your Locus to live forever.

If WAAS or DGPS is used in anything but navigation mode that is news to me. The objective of survey observations is precise relative positioning. Seed coordinates for survey applications need to come from geodetic control monuments.

Alternatively, you could use a WAAS or DGPS coordinate that you saved as a waypoint. You could just use the GPS position from the raw data file. It will be close enough for many applications.

Can I be the only one who ever scaled coordinates from a USGS quad to begin a survey project? This was a long time before I ever saw a GPS receiver.

The information about how to use the tools that is available to me is also available to you on the ftp server. There may be some secret tips or tricks that are picked up by accident or intention but the only how-to instructions that I have are there on the ftp server.

Most of my work is about the present. Some of it is about the past. Once in a while I get a glimpse of the future which looks very exciting to me.

A few days ago I mentioned an article in the training folder on the ftp server at

ftp://ftp.thalesnavigation.com

that talks about the future. It is as specific as I can be about what the future holds for people who use Thales Navigation tools.

After attending the seminars in Riverside, California last week I am even more excited about what the future holds.

If I was setting up my new small survey business tomorrow it would include all of the following that I could afford. Two ZMax for RTK and post process, two ProMark2 for post process and navigation, one MobileMapper for GIS data capture. I would have GNSS Studio and MobileMapper Office for my data processing. FAST Survey would be my data collection software.

You must each decide what is best for you. There is nothing wrong with whining for the things you want. I whine for lots of things. I also make up my own mind about who makes the best tools.

Here is something I have noticed. Sometimes the things whined for are built but not bought. I often see that people want things but not if they cost money. The demand for ever more features needs to be balanced with a desire to deal with a more intense learning curve. Certain CAD and GIS software companies work hard to convince me how little I know about their software. Will anybody volunteer to pay for my annual tech support contracts this year?

Randy and I used to hear whining quite often when we quoted prices for surveying. He came up with a saying that I really liked. When people whined about some other surveyor who would do the job cheaper but they didn't have time Randy would say, "I'll sell you eggs for 25 cents a dozen. But I don't have any eggs. Are you going to buy eggs from me or will you go to the grocery store?"

Sometimes old tools fit my hand best. I still enjoy using my SuperCA. I carried the same four pound hammer for 17 years and drove many miles one evening to go pick it up from the spot where I dropped it. My old Windows98 computer is here on the table beside me. But it is turned off. My newer WindowsX

Surely in your new "start up" company you would have money in the budget for a total station, wouldn't you? If so, what brand and more particularly, what data collection software would you use?

Dangerous Dave

Well, DD, since you asked...

FAST Survey would be my choice for the data collection. I kinda like it best but there are things I like about other brands too. Still FAST Survey will be my choice.

Total station? That one is tough because I have not touched a total station since 2001. I carried Sokkia total stations in my truck for many years. But I would have to kick tires before I made my choice. It would probably be a robot so I could do solo work with less walking. I hear guys bragging about various robots at surveyor meetings I attend. I got to see a demo of one of those laser scanners that was pretty cool.

I would need a helper because my leg is shot. I would struggle just to keep up with them and may have to just sit and watch in close proximity. But I would have to be someplace close to the business end of that rover pole. To me, responsible charge means eyes, ears, feet, and hands on the job. That probably means I better stick with my tech support job and live vicariously through you guys.

I always figured my legs would last longer than the rest of me. This is a safety first reminder, guys.

Loquacious tonight.

Paul in PA
Modified By Lawrence Paul Lopresti on 10/29/2004 at 12:27 AM

You gots mail.

LPL. "Loquacious"..... I like that! Now if I could just find Vivacious without the Loquacious I'd be happy....

FAST Survey looks just like Carlson SurvCE data collection software.